I exclusively watch Korean dramas. While this doesn’t make me an expert in Korean culture, they have a healthy respect for those who are older and strong sense of filial piety. The Korean language uses honorifics, and casual speech is reserved for those born in the same year as you or younger. The appearance of youth is highly valued there, but acting young is not. Adults often put an impetuous youth in his or her place, and in order for a youth to challenge the authority of an older adult, they must display competence, diligence, and exhibit success. Many dramas can act as an example of this, but the best example is most likely Itaewon Class, a story of a youth wronged by an older conglomerate CEO. In order to execute his revenge, he concocts a painful 15-year plan while in prison.
In contrast, the entitled American college student has accomplished relatively little and spews his or her unchallenged beliefs and demands fidelity and surprisingly is granted this. I suspect a large part of this shift is social media because it allows for colleagues of the criticized professor or administrator to concur with the youthful accusations to elevate their own status. Shoddy news reporting more interested in narrative over facts perpetuates the spiral which is why we find ourselves in an illiberal rabbit hole.
Rob, great piece. I’ve done market research on baby boomers extensively. And in hundreds of in-depth interviews, I can say that the generation stands out for hating their parents more than any other. This is wrapped up in the 1960s culture wars, yes, but it’s bigger. When you reject your parents this much, I think it’s fair to say that you no longer have a road map to inhabiting elder status. You are left with chasing a lost youth…it’s a broken generation with one of the highest divorce rates as well. Rapid social change has generational casualties. I think the same can be said for children of those who died and fought in the Civil War.
I had to laugh upon reading the WSJ article about boomers want to pick what their grandchildren call them. I suppose you can try to do that, but your name tends to be assigned to you by your grandchildren. They call you what they can say. My granddaughter calls me "Bubba". This is not the name I would have picked - or even thought of - if asked. But every time she looks at me and says it, my heart melts. My mom was labeled "Bica" by one set of grandchildren, and "Mimi" by another set. She still answers to both (although her grandchildren are approaching 40...
About 10 years ago, I hiked the Appalachian Trail with my youngest son. On the AT, you are assigned a "trail name". The culture is that it is assigned to you, not picked by you. Some hikers would try to pick their own trail name, but that tended to get overruled very quickly. I sprained my ankle on the second day of our six-month trip and was named "Dos Equis" after the beer commercials (I don't usually hike the AT, but when I do it's on a sprained ankle). My son was christened "OSHA" after accidentally staring a small fire with his alcohol stove.
Sometimes, it seems that we think we can control everything - down to the tiniest detail. But that is never true. I was christened "George", grew up being called "Mike" by my family, was called "Dos Equis" by my AT companions, and now I'm going to be "Bubba" for the rest of my life.
I guess that some of the wisdom that (maybe) comes from age is that it's less important what people call you, than what people think of you. The key is to grow.
I’d suggest the centrality of sex (and particularly sport sex, divorced from marriage and childbearing) in post-60s culture as a possible reason for this. The importance of sex appeal is signalled as central to one’s status far more than wisdom, duty, competence etc., and there’s a particular halo around post-40s celebs who maintain a youthful physique and appearance. Boomers fear a recognition of old age and crave the approbation of the young as an implicit recognition that they remain in some sexually desirable, or at least sexually vital in some way.
The Pampered children of the Shell Shocked greatest generation grew up in Beaver Cleaver land... great economy, two-parent households, Mom staying home 2 make lunch and send them off to school...
their parents after defeating the Nazis and saving the world went straight to work on communism and building the world's economy. They also went to work on America and civil rights. Make no mistakes the boomers had nothing to do with the civil rights movement. All the legislation got passed by the greatest generation..
This Pampered do-nothing generation has squandered the greatest period of American prosperity and World prosperity in the history of mankind and now are getting old and want another chance
"They want the prestige that comes with having power. But they don’t want the responsibility of exerting it when challenged by a bunch of naive and pampered kids who have faced zero percent of real life and its attendant hardships."
I found this striking because it also tracks the abdication of power by the Congress in recent years. It is a well know observation that a huge portion of Congress is more interested in getting re-elected and getting on TV than than legislating-- resulting in many decision being passed to the Executive both literally (empowering regulatory agencies) and figuratively (doing nothing and waiting for the Executive to stretch its powers to act).
I had never understood why anyone would want to work so hard to be in a Congress like this, but I think your quotation provides the answer.
"I Have Yet to Hear a Satisfactory Answer For Why Adults Care What Young People Think" - I would offer that this was quite interesting and informative.
But, as someone two decades older than you, I guess I shouldn't care...?
I don't have the exact quote, but many years ago film critic Mick LaSalle wrote something like this: When you're young, you don't have much money, but you look good. Then when you get old, you don't look as good, but you've got money. So shut up, everyone makes out!
It's not about the young people. It's about incentives and the how the future is likely to evolve.
US universities have come to treat students as customers. The job of faculty is to please the customer. Appearing to agree with their ideas is viewed as being relatable.
Politicians treat young people as potential voters. Appearing to agree with their ideas is viewed as a good way to garner the votes of a typically low turnout cohort.
Serious people value their experience, but recognize that new ideas, both good and bad, typically come from the young. It would be foolish to antagonize those presenting new ideas, even if experience tells you that the particular idea is a bad one.
Finally, serious people know they will eventually be replaced by someone younger, but are not in a hurry for it to happen. I recall an investment banker lamenting his going along with securitization of mortgages in the aftermath of the financial crisis. He said he knew better but relented when called a dinosaur. The message was loud and clear - You're large and in charge, but soon to be extinct.
It's still the case that when a young person of promise calls an older established person a dinosaur, the older person will feel their experience devalued.
Anthropologist David Lancy has a wonderful concept for this called, neontocracy. Where the youngest members of a community are the most valued. This is mostly seen in WEIRD countries. The rest of the less modern world is a gerontocracy—the oldest members being the most valued. This has wide reaching societal implications.
I think this is more due to the generational embrace of postmodernism over modernism. Acting older often meant upholding the veneer of "knowing everything" and "appearing confident in all situations". Postmodernism upended this: it taught us to be suspicous of anything which was too self-sure, credentialed, or seemingly invulnerable. Personally, I have found this to be a good thing - even the old and experienced are not beyond critique.
Glad to see this piece. Got here through a link in Aaron Renn’s newsletter. I’ve been thinking about this since I was a boy in the 1970s, which is approximately when our cult of youthful superiority was becoming fully entrenched in mainstream culture and society. (You could trace it back a long way — to Rousseau at least, if not more ancient roots, then probably to the 1920s, and the 1960s of course, and arguably it has reached new heights [depths] in the age of “social” media. Someone should write a history of juvenomania… or maybe it already exists? Any suggestions?)
Anyway, maybe in part because one parent came from Eastern Europe and that side of the family didn’t fit the new paradigm, I always had the feeling that things were topsy-turvy. I had urges toward youthful rebellion like anyone else, but it hardly felt like rebellion when adult society was fully on board with what I knew deep down were transient immaturities and that I really should be put in my place.
Today it seems to have metastasized; it’s not just juvenophilia, it’s juvenocracy.
The fact that Bill Maher and Drew Pinsky and others are recognizing the problem may mean that the Owl of Minerva has finally taken flight, but as always, it’s already dusk.
It's funny because when my kids were really little, we'd take them over to their grandparents. Our kids were awesome and really well behaved, because my wife and I wouldn't tolerate anything else.
BUT - after a trip to Grandma's, we'd hear endless stories from Grandma about how ill behaved our children had been. My wife would explain that it was because she never followed through on any of her promised punishments. Grandma would then say, "But this is *Grandma's House*; it is a place to have fun, not for punishment. I want these kids to love their Grandma" and of course this had the predictable result of our kids not respecting her at all.
The best punishments are those you never have to deliver - it didn't take long for our kids to be amazing and respectful because as parents, we were consistent. There were of course times we really didn't have the energy to punish our kids, so in those cases, we didn't threaten to. Kids can smell a hollow threat from a mile away.
I exclusively watch Korean dramas. While this doesn’t make me an expert in Korean culture, they have a healthy respect for those who are older and strong sense of filial piety. The Korean language uses honorifics, and casual speech is reserved for those born in the same year as you or younger. The appearance of youth is highly valued there, but acting young is not. Adults often put an impetuous youth in his or her place, and in order for a youth to challenge the authority of an older adult, they must display competence, diligence, and exhibit success. Many dramas can act as an example of this, but the best example is most likely Itaewon Class, a story of a youth wronged by an older conglomerate CEO. In order to execute his revenge, he concocts a painful 15-year plan while in prison.
In contrast, the entitled American college student has accomplished relatively little and spews his or her unchallenged beliefs and demands fidelity and surprisingly is granted this. I suspect a large part of this shift is social media because it allows for colleagues of the criticized professor or administrator to concur with the youthful accusations to elevate their own status. Shoddy news reporting more interested in narrative over facts perpetuates the spiral which is why we find ourselves in an illiberal rabbit hole.
Rob, great piece. I’ve done market research on baby boomers extensively. And in hundreds of in-depth interviews, I can say that the generation stands out for hating their parents more than any other. This is wrapped up in the 1960s culture wars, yes, but it’s bigger. When you reject your parents this much, I think it’s fair to say that you no longer have a road map to inhabiting elder status. You are left with chasing a lost youth…it’s a broken generation with one of the highest divorce rates as well. Rapid social change has generational casualties. I think the same can be said for children of those who died and fought in the Civil War.
I had to laugh upon reading the WSJ article about boomers want to pick what their grandchildren call them. I suppose you can try to do that, but your name tends to be assigned to you by your grandchildren. They call you what they can say. My granddaughter calls me "Bubba". This is not the name I would have picked - or even thought of - if asked. But every time she looks at me and says it, my heart melts. My mom was labeled "Bica" by one set of grandchildren, and "Mimi" by another set. She still answers to both (although her grandchildren are approaching 40...
About 10 years ago, I hiked the Appalachian Trail with my youngest son. On the AT, you are assigned a "trail name". The culture is that it is assigned to you, not picked by you. Some hikers would try to pick their own trail name, but that tended to get overruled very quickly. I sprained my ankle on the second day of our six-month trip and was named "Dos Equis" after the beer commercials (I don't usually hike the AT, but when I do it's on a sprained ankle). My son was christened "OSHA" after accidentally staring a small fire with his alcohol stove.
Sometimes, it seems that we think we can control everything - down to the tiniest detail. But that is never true. I was christened "George", grew up being called "Mike" by my family, was called "Dos Equis" by my AT companions, and now I'm going to be "Bubba" for the rest of my life.
I guess that some of the wisdom that (maybe) comes from age is that it's less important what people call you, than what people think of you. The key is to grow.
I’d suggest the centrality of sex (and particularly sport sex, divorced from marriage and childbearing) in post-60s culture as a possible reason for this. The importance of sex appeal is signalled as central to one’s status far more than wisdom, duty, competence etc., and there’s a particular halo around post-40s celebs who maintain a youthful physique and appearance. Boomers fear a recognition of old age and crave the approbation of the young as an implicit recognition that they remain in some sexually desirable, or at least sexually vital in some way.
The Pampered children of the Shell Shocked greatest generation grew up in Beaver Cleaver land... great economy, two-parent households, Mom staying home 2 make lunch and send them off to school...
their parents after defeating the Nazis and saving the world went straight to work on communism and building the world's economy. They also went to work on America and civil rights. Make no mistakes the boomers had nothing to do with the civil rights movement. All the legislation got passed by the greatest generation..
This Pampered do-nothing generation has squandered the greatest period of American prosperity and World prosperity in the history of mankind and now are getting old and want another chance
"They want the prestige that comes with having power. But they don’t want the responsibility of exerting it when challenged by a bunch of naive and pampered kids who have faced zero percent of real life and its attendant hardships."
I found this striking because it also tracks the abdication of power by the Congress in recent years. It is a well know observation that a huge portion of Congress is more interested in getting re-elected and getting on TV than than legislating-- resulting in many decision being passed to the Executive both literally (empowering regulatory agencies) and figuratively (doing nothing and waiting for the Executive to stretch its powers to act).
I had never understood why anyone would want to work so hard to be in a Congress like this, but I think your quotation provides the answer.
"I Have Yet to Hear a Satisfactory Answer For Why Adults Care What Young People Think" - I would offer that this was quite interesting and informative.
But, as someone two decades older than you, I guess I shouldn't care...?
I don't have the exact quote, but many years ago film critic Mick LaSalle wrote something like this: When you're young, you don't have much money, but you look good. Then when you get old, you don't look as good, but you've got money. So shut up, everyone makes out!
Ray Zemon
just now
Why Adults Care What Young People Think?
It's not about the young people. It's about incentives and the how the future is likely to evolve.
US universities have come to treat students as customers. The job of faculty is to please the customer. Appearing to agree with their ideas is viewed as being relatable.
Politicians treat young people as potential voters. Appearing to agree with their ideas is viewed as a good way to garner the votes of a typically low turnout cohort.
Serious people value their experience, but recognize that new ideas, both good and bad, typically come from the young. It would be foolish to antagonize those presenting new ideas, even if experience tells you that the particular idea is a bad one.
Finally, serious people know they will eventually be replaced by someone younger, but are not in a hurry for it to happen. I recall an investment banker lamenting his going along with securitization of mortgages in the aftermath of the financial crisis. He said he knew better but relented when called a dinosaur. The message was loud and clear - You're large and in charge, but soon to be extinct.
It's still the case that when a young person of promise calls an older established person a dinosaur, the older person will feel their experience devalued.
Anthropologist David Lancy has a wonderful concept for this called, neontocracy. Where the youngest members of a community are the most valued. This is mostly seen in WEIRD countries. The rest of the less modern world is a gerontocracy—the oldest members being the most valued. This has wide reaching societal implications.
Nothing to add, but wow this was so dead on. I was nodding the whole time I read.
I think this is more due to the generational embrace of postmodernism over modernism. Acting older often meant upholding the veneer of "knowing everything" and "appearing confident in all situations". Postmodernism upended this: it taught us to be suspicous of anything which was too self-sure, credentialed, or seemingly invulnerable. Personally, I have found this to be a good thing - even the old and experienced are not beyond critique.
Glad to see this piece. Got here through a link in Aaron Renn’s newsletter. I’ve been thinking about this since I was a boy in the 1970s, which is approximately when our cult of youthful superiority was becoming fully entrenched in mainstream culture and society. (You could trace it back a long way — to Rousseau at least, if not more ancient roots, then probably to the 1920s, and the 1960s of course, and arguably it has reached new heights [depths] in the age of “social” media. Someone should write a history of juvenomania… or maybe it already exists? Any suggestions?)
Anyway, maybe in part because one parent came from Eastern Europe and that side of the family didn’t fit the new paradigm, I always had the feeling that things were topsy-turvy. I had urges toward youthful rebellion like anyone else, but it hardly felt like rebellion when adult society was fully on board with what I knew deep down were transient immaturities and that I really should be put in my place.
Today it seems to have metastasized; it’s not just juvenophilia, it’s juvenocracy.
The fact that Bill Maher and Drew Pinsky and others are recognizing the problem may mean that the Owl of Minerva has finally taken flight, but as always, it’s already dusk.
One of your best insights yet
It's funny because when my kids were really little, we'd take them over to their grandparents. Our kids were awesome and really well behaved, because my wife and I wouldn't tolerate anything else.
BUT - after a trip to Grandma's, we'd hear endless stories from Grandma about how ill behaved our children had been. My wife would explain that it was because she never followed through on any of her promised punishments. Grandma would then say, "But this is *Grandma's House*; it is a place to have fun, not for punishment. I want these kids to love their Grandma" and of course this had the predictable result of our kids not respecting her at all.
The best punishments are those you never have to deliver - it didn't take long for our kids to be amazing and respectful because as parents, we were consistent. There were of course times we really didn't have the energy to punish our kids, so in those cases, we didn't threaten to. Kids can smell a hollow threat from a mile away.